Hi Angeline!

Just a thought, I think a more apropriate question would be HOW do we know WHAT is compromising on our spirituality and what isn't.

Anyway, don't you think that Pentecostalism today has taken a turn, or in your words, an adjustment, that in certain ways, have watered down the original foundation of our faith, God? (Music, for instance)

Good thoughts dear gal!

I understand as you have mentioned that this is only speaking of practices and not on the doctrinal angle of things. But don't you think our practices are influence by our doctrines??

Well here's the question. Do you believe that as a Pentecostal if we conform and bend in our practices because of the reasons you gave (losing members OR losing ‘the’ original foundations and basis’ of the movement); do you think we can be in danger of falling for a charismatic belief instead and selling away unknowingly our Pentecostal heritage.

And the questions keep getting tougher.

Hope mine is mild:
your point of: "Adjustments are made as we ‘discover’ what works and what doesn’t, what suits and what sticks out like a sore thumb, what goes with the flow, ride the waves and what is against the current – as we as a movement strive to be more relevant to the society."

And your point of: "I would say that we need to beware of losing that spark of vibrancy and cutting edge in the midst of modernism."

they contradict in essence. What should we do adjust? If we do we fail our Pentecostal Fathers, they preached the truth becuase they knew that the people needed to know that they were sinners. And the brutal truth is what isn needed for a world that is patting themselves on the back saying that they are alright.

But your final point of us needing to adjust is feeding the peoples wants and not needs. Where do you draw the line? (I realise its close to someof the qurstions above) And should the truth set the people free or does speaking with love means going soft on them and saying that they are ok? isn;t that giving into the spiritof Modernism that you warned about in the first place?

Hi Angeline,
Thanks for being realistic in your view. From your point is sound obvious 'Pentecostalism' is already losing its cutting edge. Your comment "We are found caught in the position of losing members OR losing ‘the’ original foundations and basis’ of the movement", tends to suggest it is indeed difficult for us to maintain our spiritual heritage. Do you have any practical ways to 'remedy' the situation?

Hi Angeline

You said "that we need to beware of losing that spark of vibrancy and cutting edge in the midst of modernism.

But recognizing that at any given moment there will be those who are more passionate and who will continue to spearhead the movement in the vibrant, cutting edge direction as there will be those who are laid back and barely tailing at the back.

Well if you are one of those spearheads, what measures would you take to set the example for others to follow instead of just going with the flow?

hi Angeline,

What to you would be an example of conforming into a new way to accommodate the ever-changing circumstances of the community, culture.......etc. is there an instance for an example?

Just another thought.

I personally think that some ‘traditions’ (if it is the right word to use) should still be kept. That throughout all the changes and adjustments made, we must not lose the foundation that our faith is built on. But do you not think that today, especially among the youths or younger generation, in order to be ‘cutting edge’ and ‘relevant’, we actually have compromised a lot on our doctrines and beliefs? That traditions have now been replaced with new methods which water down the message of the Gospel? That the foundation of our faith has been replaced with the lust for a bigger church or more lively and vibrant church (in other words, self)? Would then, these adjustments be necessary? If not, would it be like what you wrote, for instance, “we lose members” in order to hold firmly to ‘the’ original foundations and basis’ of the movement? What would be your take on this subject matter?

adding on to Bryan's comment what are the things you find necessary to keep in our beliefs? what is your comment on what we are doing that is right? can we build on that?

Bryan: Question 1

On rephrasing HOW do we know WHAT is compromising on our spirituality and what isn't...
yeah, I did think of posing that as the question actually. But decided on asking WHEN because then the answer becomes more subjective than it is do’s and don’ts/ Yes and No or procedure-like. Cos we end up asking is doing this or that compromising on our spirituality?
Also, don’t you think that it is hard to draw the black and white line across this grey area of what then compromises our spirituality? But then again… asking when do we also places us in the grey area. Haha.
Perhaps we can find some answers to your question if we refer back to when Pentecostalism was started. How was the spirituality like when it was founded upon, and how did (they) keep the spirituality of it burning aflame. And the results of our compromise on spirituality will show. If it dampens the movement, then that we know that it probably has compromised our spirituality.

Anyway, don't you think that Pentecostalism today has taken a turn, or in your words, an adjustment, that in certain ways, have watered down the original foundation of our faith, God? (Music, for instance)
Haha. Now you’re asking me something I did not talk about. Hmm... I suppose due to the excuse and reason of becoming less extreme or tolerant and acceptable in society we have water down the way we present our faith as compared to the times we first original foundation of our faith. I’m not sure if music has been such a disputed issue in the Pentecostal church. Let me check on that and get back to you. Meanwhile, anyone has thoughts on that? =)

Charity
Yes, no doubt about that :) But whilst our Pentecostal doctrines are the foundation that influences our practices, they are SUPPOSED to remain the same. Whereas what we practice, we can adjust and evolve bit by bit. They are like the added spices and everything nice – things which complement and things which we think ‘enhances’ the spiritualism of our movement whilst holding on to the doctrines. Which [That is unless we mix and match – Charismatism and Contemporary flavor to it – and this will lead us back to our first question – IF it is even possible to be Pentecostal and charismatic for instance]

For your question, I think it depends what practice you are talking about. Because if it is regarding speaking in tongues (as initial evidence or not for being baptized in the HS) then yes, we are in that danger zone. Other than that… worship styles, ways of doing things… then probably not.

:)

Lionel
They will be mild if u keep them mild. Hehe!

Here’s to clarify what I meant when I said
“Adjustments are made as we ‘discover’ what works and what doesn’t, what suits and what sticks out like a sore thumb, what goes with the flow, ride the waves and what is against the current – as we as a movement strive to be more relevant to the society."
I meant (and using ur words as I clarify):
Do we conform or stay on the traditionalism path and pace set by our Pentecostal Fathers?
We see the church today conforming most of the time so that it remains ‘relevant’ or on that pretext. While in actual fact we are only shying from the old sharp blunt truth that the Pentecostal Fathers have built before us – which is why I said we ought to beware of losing that spark of vibrancy and cutting edge in the midst of modernism."

So yes, back to when do we or do we not compromise? =p we shall see…

Freddie
Honestly, I thought that would be something I will find out in class! As it boils back down to how much of our heritage do we want to keep and how do we go about it.
If we want to keep our heritage and not lose it, we will need to first KNOW IT! So perhaps a practical way would be to educate our members out there what is it to be Pentecostal (just like what this class is making me aware of) =) This is so that they will know why we do what we do. Also, we probably just need to practice what we ‘preach’ – have hours set aside for seeking God and speaking in tongues and from there we can all witness the revival of the Pentecostal fire in today’s church.

I do feel that the best way is through education, but let’s not make it lecture style boring but be creative in how we can rekindle the dying flame. We can make it exciting by playing a game of ‘tag’ its your turn to pray and keep watch, making it practical to them. If one is passionate for it, another will catch on and we won’t be losing members or losing the foundations of Pentecostalism! Think it will work? =)

Kenrick
Lol. I don’t know – would that contribute as an answer? =p

Perhaps I will have to gather a few other spearhead-ers along and start the power Pentecostal, cry out for the move of the Holy Spirit prayer, at any given opportunity talk about going back to the old time religion =p spread the word around, invite others to join and be more radical than I already am. At any time, I would need my life to show that I am all for it.

Oh! I could grab a few youngsters, freshies, and mentor them in the Pentecostal way!!

Now let me ask u then, if I were doing so, would you join me in my quest? =p

Jason
Hey, I meant more like the way we are doing things in church? Less emphasis on prayer, baptism of the HS, speaking in tongues. We speak in tongues less because there are people who feel spooked out or uncomfortable with it. We place more emphasis on hospitality, good praise and worship songs – the different style and genre of music, becoming more relevant to the community – “be like them” while being careful to not “be of the world”. What is permissible and what isn’t?

Hope I answered your question =)

Bryan: Question 2
Before going on… when you said we must not lose the foundation that our faith is built on I don’t think you are saying that our faith is built on Pentecostalism right? Hehe. But assuming you mean the foundation that our doctrinal belief is built on, yes I certainly think we need to from time to time do a balance check to see if we have deviated from the doctrines that Pentecostals hold on to. Cos as I grew up in church, I didn’t pay much attention to what is Pentecostalism. All I knew at perhaps the age of 12 was that I belong to the AG ‘denomination’ and then at 15 I found out that the AG isn’t a denomination but a fellowship! So I don’t ‘blame’ the youths and younger generations for not knowing what is the doctrine of Pentecostalism all about. As a matter of fact, with the little that they know, I would give them credit for trying out ‘new’ methods to be relevant to society today – even though many times they end up watering down the message of the gospel. Which then brings up the reason because they are brought up in the generation of modernism and postmodernism – a generation that is so exposed ‘new’ things, ‘new’ styles, ‘new’ movements and misguided in their concepts. [correct me if I’m wrong]. We are caught up in the hype of excitement for more – mega churches, ‘canggih multimedia and worship’, facilities, modernistic structures and etc… all these we know are not wrong, but how do we go about keeping the basic Pentecostal doctrines (or the traditionalistic ways) and not just be caught up in the hype of things while or while not experiencing the growth. I think that is our HUMOUNGOUS task. I don’t think it is impossible? *fingers crossed*

Hope it answers your question! =) cos it’s so crazy long!!! haha

Lionel
What are the things necessary to keep in our beliefs?
• HS as part of the Trinity
• We are filled by the HS who is the comforter sent by God
• Speaking in tongues as initial evidence of Baptism of the HS
• Christ as Saviour
• Erm… I’ll have to be doing tons more reading…. But is this what you are looking at?

As for your next question, I think we are right on the dot to keep on doing what we are doing – praying, ministering, preaching, caring, performing miracles in His name – like Jesus and the disciples did. The only thing about it is how we are doing it and are we getting less and less confrontational in out methods. Like u said in your earlier comment. Are we giving ourselves too many pats on the back? And if we are headed in that direction, as we think so, then it’s time we do something about it…

Hi again
Thanks ...

but here's another comment

let's take speaking in tongues for example. It's a crucial aspect as a Pentecostal. But it seems to be dissipating among the pentecostal youth in particular. I have personally attended quite a few youth services in different Pentecostal churches and I don't see them speaking in tongues. They do everythg else like dancing etc... but not speaking in tongues. How will you deal with this dissipating phenomenon

P/s: my example is not something in general. It happened in only a few particular churches but I would want to hear from you how would you respond to this situation :)

Hi Angeline,

Thanks for your answers. I'll join you if it really works. But isn't that true unless they eg. the youth for instance, until they have really experienced the pentecostalic empowerment for themselves, only then they'll be more passionate about it? I guess it really boils down to those who have already experience to passed it on, coz youths wont follow unless they see the vibrancy in our lives.

Wow so many answers at once... thanks... waiting for next post...

charity

haha. Sure.
“How would i deal with this dissipating phenomenon?”
I feel such a heavy responsibility upon my shoulders now. haha! I guess my response would also depend on the position of influence I have. In order to do a wide effect change, it's like I would have to give a decree to all the Pentecostal churches to get back to the basic root of speaking in tongues. But that really doesn’t mean every youth group is immediately going to regularly practice speaking in tongues in their services.
But realistically speaking, I think one cannot be going to churches and insisting them to speak in tongues in the name of Pentecostalism. Right? =p
But given the avenue to speak on it or write about it, I could start reiterating speaking in tongues as essential to a Pentecostal believer (even in services).
[but having said that, I think I really need to be more in touch with my Pentecostal history and background before doing that lah!] =)

Kenrick

Don’t la stand at the bylines first. Hehe. But yeah, it is true (not just for youths but also for ourselves) to be convinced of our beliefs and practices before we can passionately live it and ‘sell’ it.

To a certain level – I guess it does take a spark to get the fire going :)

Hi Angeline...

You made some valid points and also some comments that I feel was great. Particularly about losing the vibrancy. I am strongly with you on this. Nevertheless I still have a problem of defining what vibrancy is. Do you think you could explain this? I mean is vibrancy being fundamentalistic or orthodox when it comes to things like choice of songs or choice of dressing etc. or is in knowing how to strike a balace with spirituality and contemporization? I'd sincerely appreciate you giving your point of view on this matter.

Thank you :)